The Meter That Heard Its Own Lecture: Connections Part V — Independent Scientology

Hi, and welcome to another Scientology Outside of the Church podcast. This is Season 14, Episode 5, Part 5 of our Continuing Connections series. And we're going to jump right into it. We're here with Quenton and Simphiwe. And picture this, the scene. Zurich, around [unclear] ... association experiments. Wires his subjects to a galvanometer, measuring skin resistance. He reads a word, the subject answers, and on emotionally [unclear] private mental materials, the needle jumps. This is 19-0-6. The needles in Vienna's orbit. So, what was demonstrated, Psychic Episode 2, if you'll remember Freud, Jung, and all those guys. Freud's charged incidents, the material, the person, [unclear], meets electricity resistance. So, hold the picture. [unclear] on the charged item. Every element of a two, excuse me, every element of a 2026 auditing session, instrumentation, just like I did yesterday, is present in that room a long time ago. So, the instrument reaches the subject this podcast is going to be about. The question in this podcast is how it traveled. So, again, this is in Europe. This is before most people had [unclear]. This is how far back that was. The car was just coming on the scene. And we're coming out of the Victorian era to give you a little bit more context to where, how far back this one, what the connections are. Yeah, well, and when we look at this thing, you can see it that the charged words will move the needle. And that finding was so instrumental and so important and mostly unused by analysts, even at that time. And they didn't know what to do with it. And so, but we now see that charged words can move the needle with this particular instrument that Carl Jung was using. Yeah, now for listeners who have actually held cans, that, I think that would make more sense. But you have here around 1906, a needle jumped on charged words in Jung's laboratory. The rest of the episode is that needle finding its way to our table. So, now we're looking at the polygraph line. This is Larson, 1921, Marston, and two decades of variations. In 1921, you have John Larson, a Berkeley police officer with a physiology doctorate. He builds the first modern polygraph. He, like, he's actually running this continuous recording of blood pressure, pulse, and respiration, and questioning, like, yeah, questioning, during questioning people. So, you have this machine, and it's recording this continuously, the blood pressure, the pulse, and the respiration. And then you have William Moulton Marston's earlier systolic blood pressure work, which feeds into the same stream. Through the 1930s and the 40s, the instruments proliferate. Like, you have law enforcement, not therapy, paying for the development of this technology. Now, what the police line added, it was, like, a ruggedization of, and practice. Like, it was rugged, and it was just, I mean, it's police line of work. It's not therapy. So, it's rather rough. But they had portable instruments, standardized questionings, and operators trained to read the chart. Like, what these lines mean, and what the changes mean, that's working, a working session, not a laboratory, like a laboratory. You have the technology of monitoring a human under questioning, using equipment. And so, that whole thing became equipment that is used in that line of work. And then, you note one thing here, like, who is actually assembling this thing? Because it's not one field. You have a Swiss psychiatrist finding matured inside an American police war. And it's about to be picked up by a marine radio operator who became a chiropractor. Now, episode one's law again. You have all of these pieces across unrelated fields until someone puts the whole thing together. And the pieces are going to stick there waiting for somebody to put them together. Absolutely. So, Larson, Marston, back from 1921 to the 30s and 40s, all of these different pieces of equipment, all of these different things that do different, for different reasons, whether it be the polygraph, police instruments, all of these different things that are used for certain matters, they are now all converged together. Right? And the police budget at the time, the police budget's point, is that development follows whoever is paying. And the police budget is what kind of starts to pull things together. So, this is all telling you why and how these things start to kind of take shape. Yeah, I mean, the other thing to look at here is the polygraph. Basically, that's the lie detector for, like, in layman's terms. It has its own controversies. And it's a completely different show. But tonight, it matters only as the emit or the meter's ancestor. That's why we're even interested in it. Jonathan, you're here? And it's an interesting fact. Yeah. I'm here. Okay, I'm going to pause here for a second. It's an interesting fact to point out that something that was developed for one purpose turned to being used as almost like a polygraph, which it is not. That is a misuse. And later, the polygraph replaced this device. And the polygraph doesn't even work either. I can attest to that personally. So it's an interesting set of connections that you go from psychiatry to police work to another former Navy officer who becomes a chiropractor. And now it's being used on the whole track. It's an interesting set of connections, to say the least. Yeah. And so this brings us then to Mathison. So Mathison comes to the table now. And so we have a marine radio operator, a chiropractor, and this lie detector experimenter who the man is Volney Mathison, Volney G. Mathison. And he spent decades as a marine radio operator and electronics man. Later, he became this chiropractor and an inveterate experimenter with lie detector type instruments at his Los Angeles workbench. And this person with one foot in each of the chains, two strings, hands on the electronics, and then hands on the body work. So he has his hands in both of these different ways of doing this, right? So the observation is this. Working with his instruments, Mathison noticed the needle responding not just to present time stress, but to recalled past events. This is important. Recall past events and the reaction appearing when a person's attention moved through their memory. The same phenomena Jung logged back in 1906 was rediscovered at this gentleman's workbench with all his equipment, and he was trying to do something about it. He was about to do something about it. So when he did set the stage by 1950, Mathison has the skill. He has the workbench laid out. He has the observation and what he's observed with the needle and what was happening here. And so no framework determining an instrument. What he lacks, a lecture hall in Los Angeles is about to supply. A subject explicitly built on charge past incidents whose founder is stating from the stage what he cannot yet objectively see. Yeah. And again, this was wholly and completely a live experiment in front of a large audience by LRH. And the meter was lent to him by Mathison. I don't know that it's necessarily under pressure, but it's definitely a happy accident that all of this was witnessed by a large group of people. It wasn't something that was on a bench somewhere or it was live. I mean, it's like taking it on Jimmy Kimmel, you know, and hope for the best and we'll see what happens. And that itself is a connection for the audience and terribly important because you have witnesses. You have receipts on this and how all of this just chains together that leads all the way up to where we're at now at the opposite end of the bridge with what we use the meter for in word clearing and everything else. So it's really, to me, it's just amazing. And I'm looking at, you know, this word phenomenon or phenomena, like it's something that actually happens that you can observe. And personally, I remember the first time I actually came across the meter, it was quite interesting to actually see the thing move, not on just what has happened, but also when I was recalling things that have happened in the past. It was a, we're doing a stress test in town and they asked me to recall, like recall a time, like recall a time was, they got me to think of something painful that has happened in my life. If I thought of something and I saw the reaction, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is something else. But just to see though, that is what it is used for now and where it actually comes from. The connections are quite amazing to look at, but it changes, like looking at how practical and how usable it is now. It just gives it a completely different viewpoint, so to speak. Right. And then later on, we're going to actually kind of dive into this a little bit where we're going to take, I want you to keep in mind who's sitting in the audience, who's sitting in whose audience, who's listening to this, who's aware of what's going on, and you're going to see how it all kind of plays together. Right. So that leads us to one of our favorite words, the loop. The loop. 1950. Loopy. Mathison attends LRH. He attends LRH's Los Angeles lectures in the first Dianetics boom. From the stage, the stated problem, the auditor works blind. Okay, this is, this is all, okay, what do you see? What do you hear? What do you feel? No objective indication of whether an incident is discharging. And it's still that way today with book one. And it works. Mathison hears the problem as an engineering specification. Probably a light bulb went off over his head at the time. You're looking at 1950, and it was almost. So he goes to his bench, and he builds the electropsychometer, a skin resistance instrument designed not for detecting lies, but for locating and tracking charge in session. The audience answered the lecture. Now, most derivation chains blur. Who influenced whom, when, and how much? The one has a loop you can hold. The lecture, since 1950, states the need, a listener builds [unclear], the [unclear] definition of a happy accident. This is why this episode is called what it's called, and that is, the meter that heard its own lecture. Now, you're seeing this recurrence, recursivity, these loops. All right? And this goes way, way, way back, which you'll see later on. How these particular individuals, these terminals, as LRH would later call them, have all of these things in common, yet are diametrically opposed. LRH and his viewpoint on psychiatry, but what the similarities are, and him giving, actually giving thanks in the beginning of the books to these psychiatrists. One of them that helped develop this meter through a former Navy, now come chiropractor, electronical, almost engineer. And that's exactly what's happening. Mathison saw this as an engineering problem. The reason, when the auditor could locate the charge and take the person through the process of discharging that energy, but there was no indication, there was nothing that was showing that the matter was resolved. And so, Mathison saw this as an engineering problem, and that's how the electropsychometer came about. And for the person, actually, like the individual, who is not necessarily using this as an auditor, because he was solving a problem that the auditor had, would have. Actually, even now, as a Book One auditor, it's quite crazy, because all you have to go by is what you see, the indicators that you see on the person's face. Is he happy, is he angry, is he smiling? But the meter then takes it to a different level, because now it solves the problem, even for the person sitting there receiving the auditing, because some of the things you're not even aware that it's changing. You only realize, maybe you may realize after the session, sometimes the person doesn't even realize that there's been a change. But this development changed the game for everyone, even for the person who will be here, an audience listening to this. Now you have this tool that is used, which helps you and makes life a lot quicker and a lot more effective when you're going in session for that matter. You have here a lecture that stated the need. You have a man who was in the audience at the time, who built the solution, and then he came back to serve the lecturer. It's a chain within its own loop, right in the middle. Again, our favorite word, loops. And now, moving on, January 1952. So we have now a pilot. And the credit for this is on tape. It's in LRH's own technical language. By 1952, Wichita made crisis, as we spoke about in episode four. You have the electropsychometer in LRH's hands, and immediately it becomes the central, the instrument that lets research proceed past what the auditor can observe unaided. It's like you have the advent of the microscope. Suddenly you can see stuff that you couldn't see before, and it takes your research line to another level. Similar thing, as far as I'm concerned. But then within weeks, it is on the course curriculum. The March 1952 cluster includes indoctrination in the use of the e-meter part one. Now, here's the credit, verbatim from our archives. Describing the instrument's origin on tape in 1952. LRH walks the failures first. He says, I had one of the fanciest electroencephalographs made, and it didn't do anything very much. The police detectives didn't do anything much, end quote. And then the solution and its author. And he says, and Mathison went to work and he floated a current within a current, subsets. It's a current floating inside another current. The building named the innovation and specified, well, from the lecture platform. Now, here's the pilot's function. LRH's framing of the meter in this period is instrumental, not mystical. It reads that the auditor cannot, it reads what the auditor cannot see. So the research and the session both stopped flying blind. The subject that spent episodes two and three assembling its theory just acquired its instrumentation, and that came from the audience. Talk about connections. Yeah, and Mathison, he saw a need and he filled it with, interestingly enough, LRH talks about this in policy almost 15 years later, where he says, you know, you see something that's needed and you fulfill that need. And electronics weren't necessarily a terribly easy thing to get involved with in that period of time. So his necessity level was, Mathison's necessity level was very high to get this thing to work. And without that meter, which is the size of a very large bread box, almost a microwave, by today's standards, you have, and everything, tubes were the thing, transistors were still in the future as far as transistor radios. They didn't come up until the mid to late 50s in popular culture in radios. So this was an incredible feat to get something like this to work this early in the game. And the groundwork was being laid in 52-53 with the milestone one lectures that LRH did using this meter, which would later feed into the OT levels in the late 60s. Again, subsets, loops, and recursion. Connections, yeah. Well, and I think it was interesting, too, about the current within the current, within a current. Because when you see it as the meter reads, that current is passing through the body, that current is connecting with the other terminal to read it, and it's showing on the meter. And so the tiny resistance that that passes through, that wasn't being done in the police machines. That wasn't even being done with the encephalograph, electroencephalograph. And so all of these different things that weren't accomplishing the goal, Mathison went in and was able to float this current within a current and make the needle work. Yeah, and this ties back to episode four. You have like the serendipity of it. It's like it's quite amazing. I mean, you have the meter arriving right in the middle of bankruptcy winter for the subject. And the subject instruments itself right at the point of its lowest, like at its lowest financial point. And we have this on tape in 1952, like the failed instruments were named. And then the credit, Mathison went to work and he floated a current within a current. So it was like there was a problem. And then we had someone who actually went to focus directly on this problem and did something amazing. I mean, give the subject an instrument that it actually really, really needed. Jonathan, do you want to do the LRH reference on this? Well, what I wanted to say is, and this is the same quote that we mentioned earlier. So I'm going to add a little addendum to it instead, is here in LRH and Mary Sue's Darkest Hour, he's lost the rights to Dianetics, his own book. And right in the middle of that, put yourself in there at this point in time. And there's this huge vista that's opened up of what the potential is. And you can't, you can't, this little tool, this simple Wheatstone Bridge is what it's called. It was developed in the late 1800s. It was the worst of times, it was the best of times. Because with it, the entire [unclear] Bridge occurs. And you just have to think, LRH is saying, by George, what have we got here? And from that, everything else springs. It's just like Simphiwe said, it's really serendipitous that all of these things happened at the same time. And I just marvel at, you know, you say, what a stroke of luck this was. But it wasn't a stroke of luck. This happened because of postulates. And I want to point, you're building on the shoulders of giants. Whether you agree with everything they say or not. And you'll find out, we'll find out later on in the podcast, how these paths and these forks occur, that we move away from Mathison's meter for particular reasons. But without it, we wouldn't have been able to move forward. Yeah. Well, and we do continue to move forward on this because, oh, go ahead, Simphiwe. You want to say something? Yeah, no, no, no, it's fine. You finish what you're saying. Okay. No, I was just going to continue. I was just going to continue that. Because we do continue to move forward because we have all this documented. We have all this documented. We have receipts. And we see the collaboration that started to take place. In the Journal of Scientology issue 4G, on the back page of this issue of the Journal of Scientology, the Hubbard Association of Scientologists had an ad. It says, a basic course for serious study group. Okay. A basic course for serious study groups. And the package was 12 hours of LRH lectures on tape, printed lecture summaries, booklets, advanced procedures, and one model H-52-1R electropsychometer. Price $250 paid in cash, paid in advance, or send this office $151.50, and the e-meter will be shipped COD from the factory. So this is where we see this ad come up, where the LRH, the Hubbard Association of Scientologists, was selling our entire program for $250, or you just send us $150, and we'll go ahead and get it out to you from the factory. Cash on delivery. And so what the ad proves is that in the early journal issues, the meter was not a peripheral piece of merchandise. It shipped inside the basic study package from the factory, from the HAS's own page, from the location there in Arizona, 1405 North Central Avenue. The instrument, the subject, are all one product together. And so you've got to understand how all of this became an integral collaboration. The adjacent issues carrying the electro psychometric auditing, is what it was called. Electro psychometric auditing. Sounds really nice. Among the core booklets that was all there, so you could start to learn how to use this piece of technology. And so that period was shaped from 1952 to 1954, and collaborations, the collaborations pulled together. Mathison's instrument, on the HAS's pages, which is the ad, the meter was with every course. The research was all running through it, how to use it, how it works, why it works, the whole bit. Which makes what happens next in Section 7, the season's sharpest turn, and everything is going on. So when you look at this ad, you see from the model number, the terms, the cash on delivery, you see that this collaboration was all pulled together. Auditing comes with a meter. That's how it works. Yeah, and the bundling inside. You know, if you're having an instrument shipping inside the beginner package, it makes it essential. It's not something that, yeah, I can't do this without it. It's like, it's in the price list, it's in the package, you get the whole thing, and you need the whole thing. You need the meter there. Yeah, what it reminds me of is you jump forward 20, 25 years into the 70s on the TV ads. You know, you get this, a meter, you get auditing, and if you act now, you get this fabulous, whatever, precursor. That this type of marketing was being used. And the sharpest thing to me is it's still the same way. And you have an independent field, and it's the Wild West, and people need these things to work with and everything. And this is before keeping Scientology working. This is before the first ever green-on-white policy. And this was as Wild West as you were going to get. Get a meter, see what it does, get some auditing, do some auditing, and let's get our heads together and send Western unions and telegrams and things like that. And let's put all this together and let's compare notes. This is how it was. A living member in the field from 1953, and I've had many, many discourses with her. This is Patricia Krennic. That this is how it was. And this is the early period of Scientology where you saw you from the postman, and you waited with bated breath to get it in the mail. And you're like, oh, hey, I can get a meter, and I can start auditing somebody. And then you come up to today, and we're doing a digital e-meter. Things have changed so much, but they're almost exactly the same, except we have the path laid out by us, by all of these earlier people that did this for us, that worked with LRH and gave him the basis for better, newer, more complete technology. Something not to forget, but to look at how far we've come, I guess is what I'm trying to say. It's really a marvel. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And then looking back in 1954, there was the split. You have conflicting accounts presented as conflicting. It comes to what you're saying, Jonathan. It was the wild, wild was, as wild as wild can be. Then there was the patent question. There's the discontinuation. There's the season standard of full, like, all at full stretch, like a whole lot of things happening all at once. But now in 1954, there was an end of a collaboration. Mathison and the organization part ways. By late 1954, meter use is discontinued on his lines, but on the organization's lines, they stopped using it. The subject that had bundled the instrument into its beginner package continues for a period without the meter. Talk about wild. And then the big question is why? So the accounts center on the patent and the control of the instrument's design. Who owns what? Who demanded what? Who refused whom? The versions conflict at the root. And famously, even L. Ron Hubbard Jr., testifying years later, gave two differing versions under oath at different times. When the sworn accounts of one witness disagree with the other, the citizen's standard has exactly one move available. Now, here's the move. Both families of account go on the table. Labeled, one line holds that Mathison refused to sign over his patent and the organization walked. The other line says that the organization moved to reduce dependence on an outside supplier, and Mathison walked. We do not resolve it. The timeline resumes on the far side either way. And that far side is in the next section. Let's pause here in our detail of this account. Does it sound familiar, guys? Does it sound familiar to you? Let's say, oh, I don't know. The corporate church of Scientology and the independent field? The more things change, the more they stay the same. That's right. No, no, no. I'm good. I see you're changing some things. We got to go. Oh, boy. And the connections, yeah. You know, just like LRH says, it's not the tech. It's the personalities involved. These are all connections of everything we've talked about in this season. And even you have these forks. And with these forks, good things happen, bad things happen, and then good things happen after. So, for our listeners, I just want you to look at this, that the more things change in the loop. So, I just wanted to point that out. Back over to you, Simphiwe. Yeah, I mean, here's an interesting tidbit, though. Like, you have this developmental line, which is so important. Now, trying to settle this thing and resolve it takes so much attention, and you end up actually not even moving forward. As a result, sometimes it's like, okay, let's not try to focus on resolving who did what, who, and why, and all of that. But we just let the listener keep their own counsel. Take a look at what you see and make up your own mind. Again, it goes back to that LRH data. What's true for you is what you've observed. Exactly. According to that observation. So, you take, you make up your own mind. But at the end of the day, though, it's, we don't want to lose sight of the forest on account of the trees. Like, focusing on, there's three trees there, there's three red trees, and the rest of the trees are blah, blah, blah, and arguing about that. And then we miss the fact that, hey, there's actually a forest in front of us, and whatever we need to do, we just keep doing that. Well, yeah. Exactly. And this actually kind of, this actually kind of starts to remind us, too, a little bit about what we heard in episode four back in Wichita, and how this, it started to kind of become a dispute on who was what, who owned what, who was using what properly did it out. All this stuff starts to come to us, and how this, the chain continues anyway, and things continue to grow and expand, and we're happy about that. And you look at it, and you look at it, the split is a fact. Yeah, and this. I was just, just quickly, let me put this. Yeah. The split is a fact, but the why is contested. Yep. Right. Well, it goes back to the axioms. Yours, mine, and the agreed-upon universe. Mm-hmm. Connections. Oh, yeah. So, this brings us to the fork that I mentioned just a couple minutes ago. In 1958, the new meter, which would be the American Mark IV, okay, we'll find, we've talked about this before, came on the scene. And this was built by Don Breeding and Joe Wallis, and what we've also mentioned just a few minutes ago, it was transistorized, followed by a 1966 solid-state patent a few years later. LRH named Breeding's bench work on tape in that period, and also on the briefing course. The redeveloped projection meter, developed by Don Breeding, and this is, every now and then, you'll see these on eBay, where you can see through the meter on what you're reading. Oh, I've seen that one. I've seen a picture of that one. And now we have it on screen, where you don't have to do that, but it's basically the same thing. You can see what you're reading while looking at the meter. So, you know, the more things change, the more they stay the same. So, interestingly enough, the redeveloped projection meter, developed by Don Breeding, the credit habit surviving Mathison's rupture intact. In other words, we made lemonade out of lemons once again. In the future, the church line, the design runs Mark 5, Mark 6, Mark 7, and Mark 8. And outside of the church, in the independent field, you have the theta meter, and then you have our A meter, which will be coming out soon. All based on this through connections. Now, the independent field keeps building, too. Ability meters, clarity meters, C meters, and their kin, our A meter. The same flow to current lineage developed outside the organization. All right. We started out with a theta meter, and we use it on our remote auditing lines today and are testing our own brand of meter, just with a lot more bells and whistles and a really sleek-looking package and a lot more durable. So, Mathison never imagined from a bench in Los Angeles that, geez, you're looking at 76 still be using this. So, it's a museum piece now, and it's in the LRH Museum [unclear]. It also, I kid you not, and it's there at this very moment. From Jung's galvanometer to a national museum and a corporate church museum piece, one chain, it's never broken, forked, but continuous. The instrument outlived every dispute about it. Yeah, and what we see back in 1958 Breeding and Wallis, and then the mark line is on one branch, the ability meter, the clarity meter, the C meter, the theta meter, and the A meter to come on another. So, we see a clear distinction in how these meters were developed and how they continue to develop as we're developing on our own, how they continue to develop in order to make it clear that this meter is an integral part of LRH auditing, and it's a meter that needs to be something that you can have. And I think, Jonathan, you've talked about this before, about how they now are controlling the meters or they're blocking the meters if you don't pay up or something like that. What was that about? You have a router on the Mark 8 that if you haven't paid your dues, so to speak, they shut the meter off. It's sort of like an in-app subscription, except it's a much larger subscription than people want to pay. So, you don't really, even though you pay $5,000 per meter, you don't really own the meter because you do not control it. It's sort of like an Apple subscription account that if you don't pay your Apple subscription, you can [unclear]. So, we'll have none of that. Right. Exactly. Yeah. But we do have here, like, this line of connections, as you were mentioning, from Jung's galvanometer all the way up to the meter, all the way up to the meter that hasn't been released yet, the A meter. So, it's, but we have this amazing connection. And as you've also mentioned, you have this chain that keeps, that has forks all along the way, but it stays continuous. Forked in 1958, both branches ran. Now, we've got Mark 5 through Mark 8 on the line. We've got the, you've got the theta meter and now the A meter coming to the same needle, and it's still moving. Mm-hmm. Now, here's the oldest credit of all. Where this chain stands at the end of episodes two and three, and it's an instrument with a full ancestry and a living descent here in this very podcast. Every link so far has been decades deep. From Vienna to South Africa, Malaysia, Australia, as long as they have an internet connection with AOGP. Little plug there. But the meter wasn't the oldest thing LRH credited. Sorry, I just had, I just couldn't help myself. Again, but the meter wasn't the oldest thing LRH credited, not remotely. And in 1954, newly settled in Phoenix, he opened a lecture series by reading the subject's ancestry into cellulose on a real tape machine to Gautama Siddhartha and to the oldest continuous line of thought about thought on the planet, at least currently recorded. So in our next episode, the 10,000-year-old credit, the Phoenix Lectures lineage claim, in LRH's own words, the Hymn of Asia, which is a book making the same claim in poetry and why a distiller states his sources in both. LRH does this series, LRH does this series' job itself on tape in 1954. So we're going to go even further back. And we're going to go back in the way back machine. And in our next episode, next week, the chain goes back 10,000 years. So now we're moving from patents and price lists to the VEDA. This is the season's widest single jump. And it's LRH's own jump. It's going to be amazing. And we see the whole chain laid out here. We see Mathison. We see the man who was credited on a chiropractor's workbench. Also, 10,000 years of thinking men. LRH talked about all this in his various publications and stuff like that. It's the same habit on a larger canvas. And so this is how it's all coming together. So beautiful. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And please like, share, and subscribe on YouTube. And in making these episodes, even as Class 8, Class 9, CS, there's certain things I didn't even know myself. And to me, that's really wonderful to, you know, that's, you know, it's one of those serendipitous things itself that we're able to do with our knowledge base in the AOGP website and all of the apps that we have in it and our phone app. And starting next week, we're going to be offering a two-week free trial. And if you have any interest in that and you want to give it a whirl and you want to see what we're talking about, [unclear] up and ready yet. Because, boy, oh, boy, as Quenton says, you're going to be blown away. So we want to do it right and we want it to be enterprise quality. But the lecture library and Endeavor and Source Messenger, where you can have a third dynamic group. And we're going to have our Sunday services and all kinds of cool stuff on there. And you can be part of a third dynamic in the independent field. So that's coming up this next week. Feel free to mention it or ask any questions that you have on YouTube down below. And we'll see you in the next podcast. And it's going to be a doozy. Namaste. And we love you. Bye-bye. Bye. Peace.